People are using the argument of freedom of religious expression to defend this practice.What they ignore is that they are living in Britain which has a British culture.
I witnessed this practice in Lancaster recently and found it totally repulsive. The Man was confidently talking to his mates while his 'chattels' stood silently by waiting dutifully and walked off two paces behind when he went.
How can you carry out a conversation - as I often do - with complete strangers when you have no facial expressions to read. Result - we don't. Who has ever made friends with someone wearing a Burka except in very unusual circumstances.
To put this into perspective :
If a religeous sect decreed that women should wear no clothes - Would our society cope?
Just imagine her getting on the bus or the tube in London.
Fine if you're living in deepest turkey as we saw in Tribal Wives but when in Britain show respect for the country you are living in.
What I find equally shocking, as do some of my Ghanaian friends, how lacking in confidence the British are in voicing their opinions in public - they just mutter and complain in private - like true whingers.
Vive la France. They have a high respect for people relationships and hence have far fewer social problems. (There, shoot that one down in flames)
24 comments:
what a bout them buddists men that wear frocks and women with shaven heads do we ban them ?
priests with dog collers
We have the same brides have vails
at formal weddings
eyes show more about people look at someone with mirror glasses and try to communicate yes lets ban "Ray Bans"
do you want us all to dress the same like they did in China ?
Formal wedding vows for women include OBEY they just put it into practice
Jews have seperation at worship
Hindu's have seperate worship and if you are male try to get into a convent
We have enough rules its freedon we need
To the first comment; we are not talking about freedom to dress as we wish we are talking about the ability to communicate with other human beings.
A Burka hides facial expression and body language and partially obscures the expression of the eyes - because they are in shadow. I agree mirror glasses and shades don't help but at least we have the other ways of 'reading' people.
Commenter two; the concept of 'obey' is out of date. We've got to the stage in our society is that we aim towards men and women being equal.
The concept in my relationships that anyone else would obey me is alien. We all, women and men, take charge of various situations and others in these situations agree to give way - just within that situation.
So in good relationships everyone has a turn of being in charge. This feels good as when we're not in charge we can relax and not focus on the problems involved with that activity.
When I ride in a car I have decided that if I don't like the way that the car is being driven then I will ask to be let out even if that lands me ten miles from anywhere.
One I spot what I consider a bad driver, I refuse to get in their car.
The result is that in all other situations (99.5%) I can ignore the safety side of the journey - that's the driver's job (unless they ask me for help) - I can then watch, study every little thing out of the car window, go to sleep do as I like while I am being driven.
It's great.
Isn't it up to them if they want to engage you in conversation or not, facial expressions or no? Lots of people never speak to anyone, or even leave their house & it's their right to do so.
We get hung up on burkas in the West because it is far removed from what we are used to over here, but it's not the problem it's made out to be. Besides, they aren't even all that common amongst the muslim community in Lancaster.
I assume that you want to see their faces so that you can ultimately break down barriers and interact with these people, but banning part of their way of life isn't conducive to a good relationship and is very inflammatory as France are finding out. No-one likes to be dictated to & trying to do so will make things worse, not better.
I personally dislike the burka & think that it's a symptom of polarising religous and cultural beliefs - more young muslim women are choosing to wear them because they mistakenly think they are 'more' muslim than a headscarf & they are worn almost as a protest against modern, western culture, but I think banning them would be counter-productive.
Geoff I find your comments about the Burka very "Un British "
You are showing your French breeding naughty
JAK
Yes, I can imagine that some would see these views as "un-British'.
This is a part of British culture that I am very sad about.
I do not see British People as entirely tolerant.
There is a lot of hypocrisy about where people avoid saying what they really think. I believe it starts with laziness to think things through, then comes a wish not to upset ( because people don't have the confidence not to be liked) so that they are pseudo polite but in private are outrageously contradictory which usually sounds like whinging.
I find there are few people about that will be honest in expressing their views. If they feel there is is the slightest whiff of disagreement they run a mile.
They can't handle a robust intellectual argument which why discussing religion and politics is totally off limits.
Of my 100 or so acquaintances and friends I have perhaps ten that are willing to argue about something and stand up to me with a counter argument.
These people I value greatly as these are the ones that persuade me that I need to change my beliefs.
With regard to the Burka:
First imagine what you would feel like if you walked into a place where you went to relax and socialise and 50% of the women were wearing Burkas. Alternatively imagine your local shop or street with a sea of black cloth and few friendly faces but just eyes peering out at you.
Second what is wrong with the argument that we ban women and men walking around naked. Why is that?
Surely if we can do the latter we can also do the former if this is a thing that we don't like.
No, Burkas are a minority extreme. It has little to do with Islam, we should not tolerate it.
I recently spent an afternoon in the center of Birmingham and there were many dressed in the Burka they lifted the flap to eat and picnic and there was also large African ladies in turbans and colourful dresses they did nothing but giggle and chatter no problem communicating I enjoyed the experience and did not find any of it upsetting.
I have lived in the East and I'm sure they found me strange but the natives were respectfull and tolerant.
we need a melting pot and time not more division and rules
As for walking round naked why not?
We were born with no clothes on !
JAK
I like the sound of your experiences in Birmingham.
But was it because the Burka wearers had let their hair down a little and were breaking the rules in public.
Perhaps this is the way for me to go - to deliberately engage black tented figures in conversation - especially if their man companions are present and see what happens.
Maybe I too could provoke a giggle (with a remark "my I like your ear rings" or perhaps - "what's it like in that hot black tent? - I bet you've got no clothes on under there and are lovely and cool." and lighten the interaction so that in time they might reconsider what I feel to be an alien behaviour of British soil.
Yes it's in my nature to poke at curiousities and be entertained by the reaction. Particularly the reaction to the Male in the above interaction.
Again , I suspect not very British - but then I get into great conversations with strangers in this way. So far the reactions haven't been hostile - which is why I continue!
Burka not British? Well, I guess we see so many half-naked girls around, leaving little to the imagination, that any women who wishes to keep her body free from lustful gazes would seem odd.
But women have the right to wear exactly what they choose. If a woman wants to cover up, it is her business not yours or anyone else's. If a women complains that she is being forced into something she does not want THEN that is a different matter.
You may wish to chat to everyone you meet, but that does not mean everyone wants to chat to you. Should a woman wish to lift her veil to give you a smile, it is up to her. Why assume your conversation is to be welcomed?
And, believe it or not, some women still prefer to say 'obey' in their marriage vows. NOT because they are coerced but out of love, knowing full well, that her husband desires to keep his marriage vows to love and to cherish. It is part of evangelical teaching that men and women each have their own special part to play in marriage, as in life generally. Each coming to the union with their own special gifts. Each one as important as the other. One of my grandsons was married last Saturday and (to my surprise) obey was included.
You seem to think obedience means a woman has to grovel - nothing of the kind. Love asks no such thing. True love produces a harmonious marriage.
Humility is also a precious commodity these days.
Gladys, you say:
"But women have the right to wear exactly what they choose."
No they don't.
As I point out; they don't have a right to wear nothing.
This is a law adopted by our society which has no basis in logic other than to argue : this is the way we behave in our society.
If the British decide that wearing a Burka is unacceptable in their society then it can be so.
There are two opposing systems: the freedom of the individual and the accepted behaviour of our society. There are many laws that restrict the freedom of the individual for what is seen as the benefit of society.
At a time when our society is becoming increasingly polarised and people are speaking to each other less and less, those of us concerned about this need to speak up.
Humility is a red hering. It can just as well be described as hypocrisy and lack of clear thinking.
In the end which is more important: the health of society or that of the individual. The latter leads to chaos.
What do these phrases like "true love" mean. It's based on a western fantasy that leads to many of our marriage breakups.
Too many couples are searching for "true love"; the sooner they accept that it doesn't exist, the sooner they will find a lasting relationship.
Now "mutual respect" actually means something. It's the basis for a very pragmatic relationship.
We all have a right to wear nothing Geoff
In England and Wales nudity is not in itself illegal. In Scotland and Northern Ireland the law is less clear and in practice it is more repressive.
If the police or other authorities are involved, discuss the situation with them calmly and factually, noting their identities and the salient points of the conversation. Always remain polite, and if ordered to dress, do so. If you are arrested or warned of possible proceedings, do not accept a caution or fixed penalty without first obtaining good legal advice.
JAK
Thanks for this JAK.
Then in hot weather why isn't this done more often?
The things that stop me is that I couldn't cope with the remarks from others. I go as far as walking around the house in the nude in view of those that want to look but avoid blatant confrontation.
There's also the law regarding causing a public disturbance.
I'm sure all these considerations can be applied to those that wear the Burka.
Have we done this topic to death?
Trouble with you, Geoff, is that you only seem able to see things from your own POV.
I am not unique in having been married 57 years. Had they lived long enough it would have been the same for all my sisters and brothers. The same for my husband's family. Respect yes, but it is more than respect when you have nothing in common and when times are tough. This is not being 'in love with love' but a cementing of souls into one. We are all different and love in different ways. Have you forgotten St Paul's hymn of love?
Love is patient and kind, it envies no one, it is not puffed up, nor does it take account of wrongs...
What's more some of us believe sex only goes with a
committed relationship. (I speak here of the ideal not a commandment carved in stone) More of that and there would be less sexually transmitted diseases.
I certainly would not wish to parade naked — not a pretty sight! If you wish to, why not? Frankly I doubt anyone would be in the least bit offended or interested. It is hardly a sexy or flamboyant thing to do. You might even get a few smiles, and even realistic pottery pieces?
It is rather a silly argument to bring in nudity as a form of 'wearing what you want'.
I'm sure I have heard you say at some time or other 'live and let live'. If so, it doesn't sound like it now.
You just have to accept that we are all different. Some people are extrovert, others introvert, some people'think' with their minds (or heads), others with their feelings (or heart). And there are many other other personality differences (not to go into here.)
As for naked issue. If you wish to go around naked (but for a hat?) and start chatting to people, especially children, yes you could get arrested and rightly so (In my opinion). Should you chat to me while naked, I would be embarrassed. Don't you think others might just feel the same?
If a women in a veil talked to me I would have no problem, I would chat to her too. I too like talking to people, especially children.
I find some of your right wing extremist views off-putting. Likewise your attitude towards those with religious ideals. (Of course we all know that religion can cause wars but for many it is a comfort and a rule of life that can add stability to relationships)
Of course you are entitled to be 'who you are', Why change just for others to get on with you, or understand you better?
If you say you don't care, then you are not capable of
learning to understand others who are totally different to yourself. This is not just about veils but rather appreciating individual differences.
I have said enough here. I must concentrate more on my own blogs!
Gladys, I'm greatly saddened by your use of labeling which inhibits rational argument as in:
"I find some of your right wing extremist views off-putting."
I think you'll find my different views fall into all sorts of categories. Others might choose "left wing extremist views" for some of them.
Trying to pigeon hole someone leads to much pain, in an environment where people refuse to listen to alternative view point and discussion is seen as undesirable and frightening.
I express views in order to hear other alternatives.
In The Independent yesterday,Stephen Gratwick wrote(starting part way through):
"To many who live here, for a woman to wear a Burka in public is as unacceptable as for her to expose her breasts.
I have no difficulty in accepting the covering of the head , with the face exposed, whether by a nun or a Muslim. But the burka is not an essential item of clothing to a Muslim either for cultural or religious reasons. If we, whose country this is, choose to ban it we are not interfering with their cultural or religious necessities; nor are we interfering with their human rights.
It is for us to decide what is acceptable in our country and we are not being intolerant by deciding that, if somebody wishes to act in a way which we find unacceptable, they should conform to our wishes or go elsewhere. "
Exactly! To you and others with the same opinion, women born in this country, whether children of immigrants, Welsh, Irish, Scots, English or whatever, who are Islam (or convert to Islam, possibly seeing it as an antidote to the excessive drinking, smoking, drug and licentious habits of many young - and older people) suddenly become foreigners who do not belong in our society, or even in this country where they are perfectly respectable citizens.
There are many reasons why people prefer the discipline of a religion to live by.
To me and your MP friend, the statement:
"To many who live here, for a woman to wear a Burka in public is as unacceptable as for her to expose her breasts.“
What a silly statement. Are nuns to be despised to?
Those that think such things should grow up and try to understand the ways of others. Understanding, Education, Tolerance, is the way forward NOT banning what some people don't like.
There are many things people don't like. Some object to babies being breastfed in public. But women often do expose breasts, especially on the stage or screen, or on the beach. No outcry! Should they be sent abroad to live? Sadly, some religions are hated. Should they all be banned?
Some people don't like you. Some don't like me. Are we to be banned from public places?
I did not say that you are right wing. You are right, left and centre. You love to stir up. But for a logical discussion, all sides of an argument must be heard and good reasons put forward for the stance you take. Prejudice alone is not enough.
(I don't like to see burkas but I would defend the right for a woman to wear one.)
End of discussion. I have work to do.
The view of some muslims on the Burka
A Canadian Muslim group is calling on Ottawa to ban the wearing of the burka in public, saying the argument that the right to wear it is protected by the Charter’s guarantee of freedom of religion is false.
“The burka has absolutely no place in Canada,” said Farzana Hassan, of the Muslim Canadian Congress. “In Canada we recognize the equality of men and women. We want to recognize gender equality as an absolute. The burka marginalizes women.”
She said many women who cover their face in public are being forced to by their husbands and family. As a result, she argued, these women are denied opportunities and cannot live freely as other women in this society.
“The Koran exhorts Muslims toward modesty, which can be expressed in a number of different ways and it doesn’t have to be that you have to cover your face or you have to wear a virtual tent wherever you go. This is not a requirement of Islam or the Koran. We are saying this practice has become a political issue promoted by extremists and to counter this trend we are asking for a ban on the burka.”
From Wikipedia
Before the Taliban took power in Afghanistan, the chadri was infrequently worn in cities. While they were in power, the Taliban treatment of women required the wearing of a chadri in public. Officially, it is not required under the present Afghan regime, but local warlords still enforce it in southern Afghanistan. Burqa use in the remainder of Afghanistan is variable and is observed to be gradually declining in Kabul.
After much thought, I agree that it would be a mistake to try to pass a law about this.
This is not the way to get rid of a highly undesirable practice.
Far more effective will be for the public to express their disapproval in a one to one way to those who choose to wear the Burka.
We in Britain are not good at doing this we see 'tolerance' as not saying anything to anyone even to those we totally disagree with. We then go and whinge to our friends in private. This is Hypocrisy in action - something we are very good at and could be ashamed of - if we bothered to stop and think about it.
What must not happen - is for thoughtless yobs to take it out of those wearing the Burka. Again we need to step in if we see this and condemn bullying.
This is an issue requiring some thoughtful behaviour on a one to one level.
Taking a legal approach, I feel, will achieve nothing but factions and mindless reprisals.
Tolerant however is not a word I would use to describe many of the actions in our society. Fearful, weak, hypocritical, apathetic would be better ones.
Huzzzahh geoff you arrived in the end
JAK
Yes, and I enjoyed the journey, (which is still in progress) thanks to people's comments!
I think it is disgusting that you say 'who has ever made friends with someone in a burka' When i moved away to london, i made friends with so many women who wore the burka and took part in a 'burka for a day' which was actually empowering. for women there is so much pressure to wear make up etc, there is pressure from everywhere. also you couldnt call these women oppressed, they had made the choice to wear it and they were at uni studying law. sure some muslim women are oppressed but so are western women, so are christian women, so are jewish women. so speaking as a white male, what can you possibly understand. i find your comments really offensive and im not even muslim
It's difficult resuming a discussion after several months.
Your use of the word 'disgust' is surely extreme.
Why is it disgusting to hold a view.
Taking an action can be disgusting but why holding a view?
What is disgusting about the difficulties in communication caused by obstructions to seeing facial expression; of not being able to recognise someone again.
I'm not saying that communciation is i,possible but that is made unnecessarily difficult.
As for women feeling pressure into wear lipstick etc. This in my view is a good thing as it helps women and men (who also have pressures) to think for themselves and do what they think is appropriate.
Strength of character is somethig to be encouraged. We are not helped by escaping the issue by hiding behind a Burka.
Perhaps you put your objections more concisely so they follow a logical argument rather than voicing vague emotional reactions?
I think it is hard not to be emotional about such a sore topic with me,
I don't understand why you think being pressured to wear make up a good thing. Women who do not are considered ugly by the media and many other people, you just have to look at the magazines who purposely capture celebrities without make-up and criticize them.
'Wearing make-up is thinking for yourself and doing what is deemed appropriate'. appropriate by who? western society. And it isnt always thinking for yourself. i wear make up, not because i like it, but because i want to appear conventionally attrative.
Also, yes a point of view can be disgusting, i consider racism disgusting, i consider what your saying as racism wrapped up in a veil, the veil being you trying to say its just about communicating freely with people. I am sorry but just because you find it difficult to communicate with people in burka's does not mean we should ban them.
All that has happened in france is that muslim women have been indirectly forced to stay inside as they cannot wear what they want, and it has given people an excuse to be islamaphobic without fear of being labelled as what they really are, racist.
And just because i may not be as concise as you doesnt make me wrong
"I don't understand why you think being pressured to wear make up a good thing. Women who do not are considered ugly by the media and many other people, you just have to look at the magazines who purposely capture celebrities without make-up and criticize them."
Is it not a good thing to develop the strength of character to resist public pressure like this?
Fitting in does not lead to self esteem. Do we really want people to like us because we look attractive (in their eyes)? Or would we prefer them to like us for the person we are - "Warts and all" as Cromwell was suposed to have said.
If the Burka is worn as a way of running away from this problem - is this a good thing?
When I was at school it was regarded as sissy for me to ride my mother's 'girls bike' - I learnt to live through their teasing.
When at school it was considered to be childish to not be wearing long trousers at the age of 12. I wore shorts - because I believed it made sense - until I was 15 and was the only boy who was still doing so in a school of 120 per year for the previous three years.
I was never a topic that got mentioned because the jibes of the other kids didn't both me.
This has led me to have views like the one on the Burka because I think this is a rational thing to do.
People will only be able to change my mind by using rational arguments. I don't believe I am being in the least racist or disgusting.
My argument is that if foreigners with foreign customs choose to come and live in Britain, they, whoever they are, should be willing to observe the customs of this country.
I see no reason why I should be made uncomfortable in this country by a load of women choosing to wear Burkas. I believe something has gone wrong with the self esteem of the people here if they tolerate and large number of Burkas in their living environment.
This rarely happens but the fact that we don't object could allow it to.
There is a counter argument that we a all very tolerant and enjoy diversity. That's fine if it is really true.
But if we British claim to be tolerant and at the same time mumble and complain then this is hypocrisy and I believe there's a lot of this about.
I believe we are a nation that hides and represses our true feelings which then lead to major problems when these feelings are let out - out of control when under the influence of drinking - see my previous posting under the label "minds" with the picture of smoke coming out of a man's ears.
I would rather that you ditched the idea of being concise in favour of thinking things through.
For me it really helps being an individual who stops and sorts his own reasons out and is continuously trying to understand and modify what he believes so that he is happy with himself and what he stands for.
I don't call this being concise!
My problem with your answers is you simplify a culturally different and politically complex issue by telling some crap story about the fact you wern't allowed a boys bike.
This is completely different from letting a minority wear their dress of choice.
And no actually, britain's problem is not that they are not allowed to express themselves, it is that historically most of us carry an imperialist attitude that we are the most liberal, tolerant, and therefore civilised country in the world and anyone who doesnt like it can get out.
well i beg to differ and you should open your mind before you preach your ethnocentric rubbish.
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